Unreasonable demands

The edifice of democracy is not the bastion of civilians only..this democracy is sustained and nurtured by the sweat and blood of the men in uniform..while the country men only talk and clap on talks we do and die in action. What status and parity are we talking of ..to disallow denegration of forces is the duty we have towards this country..what do people not having donned this great uniform and served this land know of what the forces mean..go see tv n be happy..dont forget popcorn

Posted On 9/29/2008 2:32:18 AM

Yes, service personals have no right to oppose the government decision at any time. perks and benefits given to them is extremely good as compared to civilian counter part. How a Lt Col with just 13 years of army service expecting pay band IV,whereas civilian counter part will get the same after 15-16 years of government service as Group A officers? Even a weak defence minister encouraging all their unreasonable demand on this aspect.

Posted On 9/29/2008 9:25:51 AM

Yes, service personals have no right to oppose the government decision at any time. perks and benefits given to them is extremely good as compared to civilian counter part. How a Lt Col with just 13 years of army service expecting pay band IV,whereas civilian counter part will get the same after 15-16 years of government service as Group A officers? Even a weak defence minister encouraging all their unreasonable demand on this aspect.

Posted On 9/29/2008 9:25:51 AM

Yes, service personals have no right to oppose the government decision at any time. perks and benefits given to them is extremely good as compared to civilian counter part. How a Lt Col with just 13 years of army service expecting pay band IV,whereas civilian counter part will get the same after 15-16 years of government service as Group A officers? Even a weak defence minister encouraging all their unreasonable demand on this aspect.

Posted On 9/29/2008 9:25:51 AM

Yes, service personals have no right to oppose the government decision at any time. perks and benefits given to them is extremely good as compared to civilian counter part. How a Lt Col with just 13 years of army service expecting pay band IV,whereas civilian counter part will get the same after 15-16 years of government service as Group A officers? Even a weak defence minister encouraging all their unreasonable demand on this aspect.

Posted On 9/29/2008 9:25:51 AM

Democracy or no democracy, the armed forces have the right to demand superiority to civil service. They work under extremely hazardous conditions. Probability of death or dismemberment on job are extreme. Contrast this with the civil servants plush office with 5 star luxury. These civil servants have not covered themselves with glory anyway. Rampant corruption and chamchagiri have made them despicable creatures in the modern India

Posted On 9/29/2008 10:06:28 AM

A democracy does not need Armed Forces. Disband the Armed Forces! Very funny indeed. The author must be an Anti National Element!

Posted On 9/29/2008 10:50:18 AM

It is a shameful and sad state of affairs created by our babus where, like never before, the defence forces had to openly ask for parity. Armed forces do a real tough job and for that their morale has to be high.The head has to be held high and the mind has to be without fear to take a risk of lives of the troops under him and hisown life. Indian armed forces are a highly disciplined lot unlike in case of pakistan and the beaurecracy need not be scred of them. Rest assured they will never create any nuisance under any circumstances. We are not asking for money but status and what ever we earn to earn it with honor and pride. Money is made by prostitutes and corrupt people but that is without any respect or honor. On the army we are taught "Death before Dishonour". what a pity we fight for the honor,pride and respect of the nation and in turn the nation can't give us the same, instead tries to keep us on their toes. When there is a war you say"mere desh ka jawan, desh ki shaan", but when it is over we are tild we are having a ball. All the duration when there is no war, we in the armed forces are always training and preparong for war and wars are not too frequent because our enemy knows our ferociousness. In case life is very cool in army, please send your sons to enjoy it.but u will not do so because you know the reality. when police fails in there duties defence forces are called ,when babus fail in thir administration again army is called to restore the situation.Dont let the forces get into a low morale, because if it happens and theor is a war, no IAS, no PCS can come and take over the command and save the day. Have a heart and have a thought before writing any thing like this.

Posted On 9/29/2008 11:52:06 AM

The armed forces in India are 'commissioned'officers the civil servants are appointed.The term servant exemplifies their status.Their is no parity between the two hence the chip on the shoulder off the civil servants.Deep down they know exactly where they stand.The armed forces in India report directly to the 'elected'representatives of the people of India.NO LESS NO MORE.THERE IS THERFORE ONCE AGAIN NO COMPARISION POSSIBLE between the two arms of the executive.The armed forces come directly under Acts of Parliament and serve at the pleasure of the President.No civil servant has this status and is therefore subordinate to the armed forces since 1947.Political neglect and obusfaction of the facts by the civil servants has lead to the elected representatives of the people being disinformed of the clear constitutional facts on the ground.This has led to the author of this article writing poppycock without stating the correct legal position on the ground.Furthermore he has not got the courage to write his name as the author of this piece.In 169 districts of this country the civil servants have run away from their posts and there is no rule of law.In these times they remember the army/navy/airforce.WHY?Kindly explain first why you all have deserted the people of this country.Status comes with responsibility and service to the nation,which must be first each and every time even beyond personal comfort.When you have honour and are not deserters then you will be granted status by the people of India.In Bihar &Assam recently during the floods all DM's deserted their posts &finally when the army/navy/airforce were asked to step in as per aid to civil power rules the young officers were informed by the suffering masses how they had been left helpless by the 'civil servants'who had packed their belongings and run away with their families.SHAME ON YOU &ALL OF THEM MUST BE SUMMARILY DISMISSED FROM SERVICE.In China not one man left his post during the earthquakes!Think,ponder why.

Posted On 9/29/2008 11:56:09 AM

Dear friend.... What is definition of civilian control over military??? This in no way means control over military by some other govt. servant. This way an IAS officer will be able to exercise control over all three services. Suddenly, he would get too much power that he is not used to handling and hence he will become the biggest threat to our democracy. Thus spirit of the statement “Civilian control over military” will be lost. True civilian control over the military can only be exercised by an elected representative in a democratic setup. This is so because an elected representative has responsibility towards the people who have elected him and that justifies his power. So please don't try to mislead people by talking about civil control and equating it to control by civil servants

Posted On 9/29/2008 12:00:45 PM

Hope when a Chinese soldier is standing with his boot on your head in your front lawn and you are begging him to spare ur life....you remember these words. As told by Gen McArthur to President Roosevelt when he tried to degrade the American military before World War II. Till then u are welcome to ur opinion and enjoy the democracy and the freedom that the armed forces ensure that u can enjoy.

Posted On 9/29/2008 12:53:34 PM

I think the person who has written this article does not understand what the core issue is. The issue is maintaining the parity as it was before the implementation of the pay commission. It amounts to saluting a person who saluted you before the implementation of pay commission. After all your pay is the indicator of the status in a hierarchy. Would the writer be ready to salute the person who saluted him yesterday?

Posted On 9/29/2008 1:35:37 PM

The views in the article are that of an ignorant person and have no merit. He has no idea about services and their interaction with government

Posted On 9/29/2008 1:44:43 PM

The Govt of India held back the Gazette Notification and defence minister (MoD) forwarded the demands of Forces itself speak that that the Govt has accepted the disparity. The President, prime minister, finance minister was spoken to by the Chiefs before raising their concern. In Forces, the commander speaks on behalf of troops unlike civilian where everybody goes on strike. Not raising the bill was result of holding back of Gazettee Notification. When you drive somebody next to wall he has no choice but to bounce back. Army did the same.Learn lesson than to blame the Forces.

Posted On 9/29/2008 3:02:00 PM

In any democracy, armed forces officers have no business demanding parity with civil servants-- BUT WHAT ABOUT PARITY WITH PARA MIL FORCES-- Dear friends have a wider view and DONT MISUSE THE WORD DEMOCRACY --else we all will lose this democracy which is purely because of OUR STRONG AND LOYAL DEF SERVICES. (In case of any emergency--National/International, try calling a civil servant for rescue-- BINGO--U GOT MY POINT)

Posted On 9/29/2008 3:47:09 PM

It appears that the precedence list which lays down the status is a farce and not for any one to guage his or her status.I can agree with the writter if the parity or order of precidence was never in place for defence personnel.There was a time where any Lt Col or above posted in Delhi area had to call on the First Person but this has deminished away. There are so many like things which have happened in past need no mention.Please understand that a materialistic man also needs protection.This need is best exhibited when faced with adverse situation and this momentary realisation passes away once the needs are met

Posted On 9/29/2008 5:26:46 PM

SO SHALLOW IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE ISSUE I DO NOT WISH TO REPLY TO IT BUT WHEN YOU TALK OF BUSINESS OF ARMED FORCES I JUST REMIND YOU OF ONE THING THAT YOU MUST NOT CARRY IN YOUR MOROSE BRAIN IE IF THE ARMED FORCES STOP DOING THE BUSINESS OF WHAT THEY DO THE CIVILIANS DO NOT HAVE A CLUE AS TO HOW TO TAKE A CHILD OUT OF BOREWELL THAT IS THE CRUX OF YOUR MENTAL CAPABILITIES.THE AIR THAT YOU BREATHE AND THE FOOD THAT YOU EAT AS ALSO THE SMILING FACE ON THE CHILD THAT YOU BORE -YOU OWE IT ALL TO THE ARMED FORCES -NEVER AGAIN DARE TO WRITE WHAT YOU HAVE BECAUSE YOU WILL GO TO YOUR GRAVE WITH THE SHRIEKS OF THE THOUSANDS OF OFFRS & MEN WHO LAID THEIR LIVES JUST TO ALLOW YOU TO ENJOY SIMPLE HAPPINESS -TELL IT TO YOUR BUREAUCRAT CRONIES AND ALL THOSE WHO INSTIGATED YOU TO WRITE THIS PIECE.

Posted On 9/29/2008 6:46:52 PM

Dear blogger, the armed forces in a democracy come under the the highest elected person, who is the President and commissions the Officers,and not under the civil servants who are actually appointed by the Government

Posted On 9/29/2008 6:59:38 PM

Though I do not want to dignify this article with a reply, I m forced to. The author's tone is condescending enough to cause fury in a soldiers mind. He has no idea what he is talking about

Posted On 9/29/2008 8:05:58 PM

The author seems to have either forgotten the history or is blissfully ignorant of the fact that the status of armed forces officers/men has been downgraded, rather degraded, day by day. He talks of parity in status with respect to their civil service counterparts.I can only wish that he goes through the order of precedence of the three service chiefs at the time of independence and compares the same to what it is today. Same is the story with all other ranks.It must be realised that both have different roles to play and comparing their jobs or working conditions is not fair. However, the author may go in for a national level poll on whether armed forces or civil bureaucracy have performed better in their respective areas and contributed more to the country and society as a whole since independence and he will get an answer.I would also like him to ponder on the reasons so as to why there is an ever increasing trend of civil bureaucracy depending more and more on defence forces at the time of calamities like earthquake, flood, fire or to control riots and on internal security matters.It is purely because even the babus-in their heart of hearts-know it fully well that the soldier will deliver when it matters.These are not the traditional roles of a soldier.The rot in civil bureaucracy has happened slowly but steadily. The bureaucrats splurge on taxpayers hard earned money, have practically little or no accountability as such, spend most of their time and energy fending to the needs of politicians, cannot ensure even the fundamental rights of citizens are protected but at the same time are extremely conscious of the fact that civil bureaucracy must prevail over armed forces.There is a famous saying that mother is remembered in pain and soldier in war.The fact that India has not fought a war in recent past has only helped his (babu's)cause.The author should know that for a soldier the 'Izzat'is the fuel that keeps him going.Jai Hind!

Posted On 9/29/2008 8:32:31 PM

When I first started subscribing to the mint along with the HT, I never thought I would feel ashamed of having done so.Probably the journalist who wrote the quick edit has a deep rooted grudge against the armed forces which would explain his prejudiced and biased editorial.Just because the army guy dons the uniform does not mean that he has to keep his mouth shut and keep on slogging like a donkey without getting any izzat or is the izzat meant only in times of national crisis and danger to the country's borders. You are right, Military service cannot be compared with civilian service. If civil servants did not fail, we would not be calling in the army at the drop of a hat, in floods, earthquakes and even when a boy falls in a borewell left open by the civil authorities. It is very easy to breeze into office at 1200 noon and in the airconditioned environment write a quick edit dismissing the just demands of the armed forces. We give our lives to the country, at least don't demean us in this fashion. As of 4th Oct, I will no longer be subscribing to the Mint and I hope that my service brethren will do the same.

Posted On 10/1/2008 7:24:30 AM

The article is worded to attract more visitors to the site.HAS NO SUBSTANCE WORTH A COMMENT.Request service officers to refrain from dignifying such posts by offering any comment what soever.

Posted On 10/1/2008 10:24:59 PM

My Dear Fellow, "Civilian Authority" means "Political Authority" and not "Bureaucratic Authority" that needs to be clearly understood by all. There is nothing wrong in "Political Decision" as approved by the Cabinet. It approved that a certain Categories of posts will be upgraded to PB-4. Who is Bureaucracy to decide sou motto that Lt Col or equivalent of Indian Army does not belong to that category whereas all else are club members? That rank always was there. That decision was taken by the Bureaucracy, thereby, subverting the Political Decision of the Govt. So who is the saboteur? Army of the likes of you?? All Political Decision taken by the Political Authorities in past regarding MOD stand subverted by Bureaucracy. The integration of MOD is a dream even after eight years of the Political Orders. The Armed Forces are not Slaves but Citizens and better Citizens of this Democratic Country. By the way which Democratic Country are you talking about where Armed Forces are in such pathetic conditions as our. Political Control of Armed Forces is exercised through the Armed Forces and not by placing a ten year IAS Over the chiefs of Defense Forces. One needs to educate oneself a bit before writing such irresponsible piece. Regrading the "Status". You demand it. Army Guys command it. That is the difference. When did Army demand status vis a vis Bureaucracy?? Armed forces from the very beginning have been asking for delinting their pay and allowances from civilian bureaucracy. But You guys have been insisting on linkage, parity and status.You want the soldiers never to paid more than your peons. You do not want Armed Forces to be treated separately. Status is your fobia. A Lt Gen does not need Status. He command one which can not be dreamt by you. People like you only have orgasm by insulting him through bureaucratic manipulations such as the pay commission. The reasons given for not upgrading LT Gen but upgrading DPs are just laughable and need to be posted as "Howlers". It can happen only is Bureaucratic Model of Democracy such as our. You have betrayed the Armed Forces, The Political System and The Country. Wake up and amend !! That the way of Democracy or you need to be sent back to Lal Bahadur Shastry Academy. Regards.

Posted On 10/2/2008 5:41:44 AM

It is surprising that such a travesty of the truth is being put across as news. #1 As pointed out severally, the elected representative who directly controls the Services (nominal head being the President) is the Defence Minister. Unless news channels have been running a fake, this gent seems to have been viewed on National TV agreeing that the Services have a problem and requesting the PM to intervene. #2 There is an interim award notification that was issued just a few days ago. The Services have not indicated any assent or dissent to it. On examination, they may implement it, if not, they will go to their boss to ask for relief. Guess who that boss is? No, not a babu. It is, surprisingly, an elected rep, the Defence Minister. #3 "In any democracy, armed forces officers have no business demanding parity with civil servants". You dumb, dumb, man. The SCPC and the Govt framework asks for specific parity between various ranks and designations. Without it how do you think interactions would be regulated ? The issue is that the Services feel the parity has been downgraded, the Committee of Secretaries feels otherwise.

Posted On 10/2/2008 12:08:09 PM

it is indeed sad to see such article posted on such good newspaper,the editor should have edited it .history has shown efficiency of armed forces.moreover to prevent attrition in armed forces from enemy and such media person with antinational feelings one can only say that think big and the nation to achieve regional pawer status deserves best brains to join armed forces,so make the service conditions best.weather the demands are justified or not you shold first check details than sit a a metro airconditioned office and give cockied views .

Posted On 10/2/2008 7:04:42 PM

Weird to say the least. How can the author be so ignorant of meaning of 'civilian control’? It of course means control of the elected representatives and not civil bureaucrats. In no other democracy that I know of is the senior most civilian bureaucrat senior in position to the senior most officer of the Armed Forces except that in India. The UK MOD site and US DOD site may be seen to confirm this. In fact in western countries many of the top civil bureaucrats especially in military matters/ ministries have also sometime served in Armed Forces at one time. Yes in US there is a law that the ‘the top civil bureaucrats’ should not have served in Armed Forces in last 10 years. These laws are designed to have a well balanced set of civil and military advisors to the Defence minister. India is in a unique position that the Senior most civilian bureaucrat in MOD is positioned senior to the senior most officer of the Armed Forces. No wonder the end result is that the civilian advisors to the political leadership on military matters dominate the scene. It is structured that way.

Posted On 10/2/2008 9:09:44 PM

Weird to say the least. How can the author be so ignorant of meaning of 'civilian control’? It of course means control of the elected representatives and not civil bureaucrats. In no other democracy that I know of is the senior most civilian bureaucrat in their MOD is senior in position to the senior most officer of the Armed Forces except that in India. The UK MOD site and US DOD site may be seen to confirm this. In fact in western countries many of the top civil bureaucrats especially in military matters/ ministries have also sometime served in Armed Forces at one time. Yes in US there is a law that the ‘the top civil bureaucrats’ should not have served in Armed Forces in last 10 years. These laws are designed to have a well balanced set of civil and military advisors to the Defence minister. India is in a unique position that the Senior most civilian bureaucrat in MOD is positioned senior to the senior most officer of the Armed Forces. No wonder the end result is that the civilian advisors to the political leadership on military matters dominate the scene. It is structured that way.

Posted On 10/2/2008 9:13:27 PM

Starting salary of Def forces is higher than their civil counterparts. Then how do they get higher jump later on in lesser service? Is not it a cheating with defence service officers? Pl permit us to resign our commission

Posted On 10/2/2008 10:06:46 PM

very unreasonable article. puerile in the least, it reeks of lack of even attempting to the subject the author is seeking to comment upon. i wonder whether there is any editorial sanction to the muck that mint has thrown up. it deserves to be reported to the press trust of India.

Posted On 10/2/2008 11:18:58 PM

You must be a babu yourself and thats why you are advocating that babus should do what they want and forces must be kicked by these babus.............gone are the days...wake up to the realities....Why should not forces demand parity with babus...in fact they should get double of what these babus are getting......poor thinking and absurd ideas do not find place in a civilized society. This country is not a colony governed by babus. Defence forces will get what they deserve...any doubt.

Posted On 10/3/2008 8:57:19 AM

Dear Dimwit, Please do not show your ignorance by writing on issues beyond your comprehension. I recommend that you be given forcible lessons on Democracy, security,history and honour in addition to a compulsory stay with an operational infantry battallion in field formation as well as a tenure in peace to understand the nature and scope of the work of our officers and men. If you survive the ordeal, I would gladly read your next valuable discourse on civilian supremacy. By the way, nobody debated on that issue at all. The men in uniform want their self respect and recognition from Bharatvarsha. No amount of money and honey from the government or insensitive bureaucrats who in any case are squandering public money make up for the supreme sacrifice that the forces are ever willing to make in the honour and defence of their motherland. Jai Hind, jai Jawan, Jai Kisan

Posted On 10/4/2008 8:58:39 PM

You have written these comments without having any knowledge of the subject.The defence services are not asking for anything more than what they had since independence. They are protesting against sudden degradation by the Secretaries Committee when they unilaterly altered the equation that the commission had maintained.You are obviously unaware of the warrant of precedence laid down by the govt determining the status of various officials both civil and military. If it is altered by the civil servants in their favour the defence has every right to protest.Supremacy of the civil over the military means the supremacy of elected representatives of the people and not civil servants otherwise the service chiefs will not be eleven ranks higher than the defence secretary. Please get your facts right before commenting.

Posted On 10/8/2008 4:55:14 PM

Dear Editor, i have no doubts in my mind there are agencies working with different interests against our national interests who want to weaken this nation,lets ignore such editorials if we are nationalist.All i can say is whatever has happened has happened for good, we have the will power to rectify and make the Armed Forces a force with high motivation and morale. As a permanent member of Security council the coming days and emerging nation competing with the developed countries and China, we CANNOT afford to have weak armed force, which i think will not be the case now at least.As one of the most important pillar of secular and democratic country Armed Forces have a role to play in planning, execution and involvement in future of this Nation. Do not fall in the trap of nations/agencies who want to weaken this Nation,take care of Armed Forces and raise there morale.

Posted On 10/9/2008 8:28:40 PM

Who is the author of this piece? It seems to be the handiwork of some ISI agents. Lets have a referrendum on the issue.

Posted On 11/26/2008 10:52:00 AM

The writer is ignorant of plain facts. I appreciate, his concern in getting the genie(read the military) out of the bottle.But this is a situation thrust upon them by degrading their pay and status.Armed forces had always wanted to delink their pay from civil, however, it was a request never granted.we never wanted faster promotions,coz it would alter the heirarchial structure and lead to management problems.so we had asked for running payband till Maj Gen(4th pay comm). It was given only till brig, by carving out rankpay out of basic pay.Payband was reverted to payscale in 5th paycommission,but rankpay was not merged back, but it was clarified (gov letter is available on the internet and I can paste it,if link is available)that rankpay is part of basic pay. fine. the equation of the nearest civ equivalent was JTS- Lt,sts- capt, JAG-Maj, NSFG-Lt col, DIG- Col, Brig-Between DIG and IG(ie,no civil equivalent), IG-Maj Gen,DGP(less than secretary)-Lt Gen, army commander Lt Gen- IAS secretary, and Cabinet secretary- service chiefs.Now, 6th paycommission has downgraded every mil rank from capt to Brigadier to one grade lower,not for any genuine reason, but quoting non-existing 'existing parity'. Chiefs took up the matter and committee of secretaries were setup to sort out the anomalies(no mil rep gain)They increased the grade pay of capt to brigadier, but through backdoor increased the grade pay of the civilian officers, thus maintaining the distorted equivalence. To add insult to injury, they applied the higher payband 4 to much junior officers than originally envisaged, thus making the net pay difference between civilians and army officers at lt col level onwards till Maj Gen substantial. I dont know how can one call this sorting out anomalies. They added and bloated out the anomalies. Where was the requirement to extend PB-4 to officers junior to Maj Gen (or IG)and create additional burden on exchequer?God save our country from these Beuraucrats!

Posted On 12/2/2008 3:19:44 PM